Legislature(1997 - 1998)
10/17/1997 11:15 AM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
Galena AK
October 17, 1997
11:15 A.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
Senator John Torgerson
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman
Senator Bert Sharp
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Interim Hearing on Subsistence
WITNESS REGISTER
Mr. Marvin Yoder, City Manager
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Welcomed Committee members.
Ms. Pat Sweetsir
Louden Tribal Council
P.O. Box 244
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Welcomed Committee members.
Ms. Bev Hundorf
Village Corporation
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Will Mayo, President
Tanana Chiefs Conference
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Steve Ginnic
Fort Yukon Tribal Council
AITC Council
P.O. Box 382
Fort Yukon AK 99740
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Joe Druck, Sr.
Chalkyitsik AK 99788
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Sidney Huntington
P.O. Box 49
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Fred Bifelt
Huslia AK 99746
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Jack Wholecheese, First Chief
Huslia AK 99746
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Catherine Attla
Huslia AK 99764
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Rose Ambrose
Huslia AK 99764
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Franklin Simon
Huslia AK 99764
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Sidney Henry
Huslia AK 99764
POSITION STATEMENT: Written statement read by Ceza Sam.
Ms. Ceza Sam
Huslia AK 99764
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Peter David
Allakaket AK 99720
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues, but all of
transmission was very broken.
Mr. Jim Stevens
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues, but all of
transmission was very broken.
Mr. Victor Nicholas, Mayor and Tribal Chief
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Teckla Esmailka
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Morris McGinty
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Michael Stickman, Second Chief, Tribal Council
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported rural priority.
Mr. Andy Durney
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported rural priority.
Mr. Peter Demoski, Tribal Administrator
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Walter Stickman, Tribal Council member
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Simeon Mountain
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Shirley Christian
Nulato AK 99765
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Edna Ungudrule Peters
Ruby Tribal Council
P.O. Box 129
Ruby AK 99768
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Carl Knudson
Galena School
P.O. Box 299
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Darryl Walker
Holy Cross Tribal Council
P.O. Box 43
Holy Cross AK 99602
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Carl Jerue, Jr.
Anvik Tribal Members
P.O. Box 10
Anvik AK 99558
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Adrienne Blatchford
Unalakleet AK and PECS
P.O. Box 389
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Marie Chiklak
Mountain Village and PECS
P.O. Box 359
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. George Yaska, Executive Officer
Tanana Chief's Conference
P.O. Box 60691
Fairbanks AK 99706
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Carl Huntington
P.O. Box 124
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Charles Sink
Gona-a Yoo, Ltd.
P.O. Box 111
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Gabe Nicholi
Grayling
P.O. Box 64
Grayling AK 99590
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Max Huhndorf
P.O. Box 329
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Jenny Perkola
P.O. Box 227
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Orville Huntington
P.O. Box 71
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Don Stickman
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Charlie Jones
Kotzebue AK 99752
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Roger Huntington
P.O. Box 10
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Violet Dayton
P.O. Box 176
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Benedict Jones
Koyukuk Tribal Council
P.O. Box 47
Koyukuk AK 99754
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Mr. Pat Sweetsir
Louden Tribal Council
P.O. Box 244
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
Ms. Angela Huntington
Galena AK 99741
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-54, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 11:15 a.m. and announced a hearing on the Governor's Task
Force proposal and Senator Stevens' amendments to the subsistence
packet that was made in Congress that are sitting on the
President's desk at this time. He said he would turn the meeting
over to Senator Lincoln, as she is from this district.
SENATOR LINCOLN announced that Huslia, Nulato, and Ruby were
listening and testifying also. She said she was sorry the House
Resources Committee was not able to attend. She thanked everyone
for their help in putting this meeting together.
MR. MARVIN YODER, City Manager, Galena, welcomed the Committee to
Galena. He reminded them that in the bush they are talking about
livelihood, not recreation.
MS. PAT SWEETSIR, Louden Tribal council, welcomed the Committee to
Galena.
MS. BEV HUNDORF welcomed the Committee members to Galena.
MR. WILL MAYO, President, Tanana Chiefs Conference, said their area
spans from the Canadian border to Holy Cross, eighty miles from the
Bering Sea. It's a huge land area and most of the villages are
remote rural communities and they have varying populations and very
few cash economy opportunities. He thanked the Committee for
coming and said they should hold more village hearings.
MR. MAYO said they understand the issue and the differing points of
view. As an urban hunter he supports the rural priority. He
thought it could work well for all parties if they could work
together on it. He doesn't have a problem with State management,
if they will recognize and work with the native communities. He
did not think natives wanted to set up a racial block, but they
want the State to recognize the management goals for the villages.
They do not want to exclude anyone, but they feel that they have
status simply because they have never left their homeland to go
somewhere else. He urged that the native people be part of the
management structure.
They believe ANILCA is a good law because it recognizes the needs
of rural areas without regards to race, but it sites federal law
and constitutional authority and their special relationship which
they think is important. They feel this is a matter of national
integrity. In the past, he felt, America had been guilty of ethnic
cleansing of native Americans. He said there are many states where
native Americans work well with the state and federal governments.
MR. MAYO thought there were a lot of shortcomings with the Task
Force proposal, but it also had some worthy aspects. He didn't
think they should consider throwing out the whole plan. He thought
they should work with it. The native community stands ready and
willing to come to the table and talk in a manner that brings honor
and recognizes basic human respect for each other, he said.
His fear is that maybe the subsistence and Title 8 ANILCA opponents
will win and maybe they will get the federal law repealed or maybe
the rural opponents will win. He said a win by either side will
never bring peace to this issue. What will bring it to an end is
for the legislature, the State government apparatus, and the tribal
communities to get together and work it out.
He said we all face some real threats because last year the federal
government caused the State to stop their aerial program. You
can't do it now unless there's an irreversible decline in prey
population. Irreversible decline means there's no more breeding
pairs out there.
He thought the ballot initiative was a dangerous alternative also.
In conclusion, he said he would like to work with them in
partnership on this issue.
MR. STEVE GINNIC, Fort Yukon Tribal Council, had a number of points
and one was that native subsistence rights are cultural.
[TELECONFERENCE TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN FOR ENTIRE TESTIMONY.]
Another point was that the Alaskan native rights could only be
protected through an Alaskan native priority. He said the Alaska
native way of life cannot be compromised.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked him how he viewed tradition and culture if
it's a living tradition.
TAPE 97-54, SIDE B
MR. GINNIC said the legislature wasn't helping them in terms of
economic development, capital projects, or welfare reform.
MR. JOE DRUCK, SR., [TELECONFERENCE TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN
FOR ENTIRE TESTIMONY.]
MR. SIDNEY HUNTINGTON said there was nothing that could take the
place of wildlife resources for his family. In his house they
raised 15 children solely off the wildlife resources. However,
Alaskans are not taking care of those resources. They are spending
too much time on politics. He said the Task Force proposal was at
least something on the table. He opposed people coming up from the
lower 48-states and taking our fish and game. He thought the
natives would be discriminated against much more if the federal
government took over management of the wildlife resources. He said
we need to use common sense to resolve this issue.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked what he thought about changing ANILCA at the
federal level and not changing our Constitution.
MR. HUNTINGTON answered but the transmission was still broken.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced a break for lunch.
MR. FRED BIFELT, Huslia, said he thought everyone knows how
important subsistence is to Alaskans, both rural and urban. He
thinks the media sometimes tries to add fuel to the fire of
contention. He thought they should focus on something that is
based on need, not residence, because there are people in urban
areas who are poor just like he is and don't have a good job. He
thought the urban/rural argument was a ploy to divide and conquer
by the federal government.
If the federal government takes over management of wildlife in
Alaska it will mean big problems for them. He thought masses of
people really controlled the congress and those masses are in Los
Angeles and New York and places like that where people know nothing
about our lifestyle. He said the federal government would shut
down hunting and put them in a museum. He thought our State
government should treat everybody equally and we should all try to
live together.
MR. BIFELT said that a lot of time they get the feeling in the bush
that they are being pushed aside and their concerns aren't even
being heard in terms of education, power/cost/equalization, and
things like that. Since reapportionment things have been going
backwards in the bush and that's where the money is coming from -
the North Slope and fishing.
MR. JACK WHOLECHEESE, First Chief of Huslia, said he would like to
see the federal and State managers meet with the people and not
overlook the people and leave them out of the decision making
process. It is their life and their ancestors hunted and fished on
these lands. He said they own a lot of land and they go out and
get food that they need every winter.
TAPE 97-55, SIDE A
He didn't think they needed to be told when to get their fish and
meat. They have religious beliefs with their animals and respect
them. He said he would do anything to try to work with the people
who are going to take over subsistence.
MS. CATHERINE ATTLA said she started out hunting and fishing as her
income with her grandfather. Her grandfather Olin was always
scared of all the laws the non-natives were making. She said they
still believe in the ancestor's spirits; they still talk to them.
They have been worried ever since they heard the word subsistence.
They don't know how to talk to Washington D.C. She said she
learned to speak one language and taught herself to speak English.
It seems like the federal government is doing more damage to their
animals because there aren't as many as there used to be.
She said the natives know how to budget their take, just like we
know how to bank money. Right now she and her husband have just
enough money to buy the things they need not counting beef and
chicken which their bodies will get sick from eating, anyhow.
MS. ROSE AMBROSE, Huslia, said she is 69-years old and from the
time she was small she lived off of subsistence. Her parents had
no job and that's the only lifestyle they know.
MR. FRANKLIN SIMON said he had trapped all his life.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if there were a time of shortage in bush
Alaska and the villages did not have a priority, what would happen
to the people who live there if there were no subsistence.
MR. SIMON replied that people would "go down" for sure.
MS. ATTLA responded that he meant that people's health would go
down without income or their diet of meat and fish.
MS. CEZA SAM said she had written testimony as told to her by Mr.
Sidney Henry. He said he lived his whole life of 63-years in the
subsistence lifestyle. He described life in camp and that's how
they have subsistence living. They know how to fish and hunt and
how much to use in one area. They know how to manage hunting and
fishing and want to help make the decisions about their area.
MS. SAM testified that she is 23-years old and had been living a
subsistence lifestyle all her life. However, she also has a job.
The subsistence is very important because if she couldn't get the
moose and fish that she eats every day, she couldn't survive on
store bought food alone. She said she also enjoys the chances to
go hunting and fishing because it makes her feel like a whole
person.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked the people who testified from Huslia and
announced they would go to Nulato for testimony.
MR. PETER DAVID, Allakaket, and MR. JIM STEVENS, Anchorage,
testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
MR. VICTOR NICHOLAS, Mayor and Tribal Chief of Nulato, said he
tried to come up with words that would win them, but he didn't
think it was possible because the problem borders on too many
things: sovereignty, native and aboriginal rights, religious
rights, and on down to basic human rights.
He said that being nomads they have been forced to adapt and in the
last 50 years they have been forced to adapt to a new lifestyle,
one that is confusing. Because of the way the system is set up
they have lost their traditional lifestyle and culture. They are
not asking for exclusive rights, but they are asking that in time
of need they be given priority not to just hunt, but to live. If
they don't give them priority, they will be making criminals out of
all of them. The answer to what the legislators call an impasse
seems so simple to them.
MS. TECKLA ESMAILKA, Nulato, said subsistence is their lifestyle.
She was born and raised in Nulato living off the country. She
moves June 16 to this country and goes back August 1. She does
everything for her family; she does not eat alone; her whole family
uses it - out to West Mont, Virginia, Miami, Seattle, Fairbanks,
and Huslia. That's where her grandchildren are and they use that
food. Whatever the federal government does is wrong. They should
back off and let the people continue their style of living.
MR. MORRIS MCGINTY, Nulato, said he never thought subsistence was
a problem because it so simple to them. It is their way of life.
It is so simple that he never got involved in the politics of it.
In the past his people lived nomadically and spoke fluent
Athabascan languages and then got introduced to the white western
culture. The first thing they did was take away their Athabascan
language and made them all speak English. He said that rules to
regulate them started being made when people started coming up from
the outside. He said to let the rural people govern themselves
because they are the best managers of the wildlife resources.
MR. MICHAEL STICKMAN, Second Chief to the Nulato Tribal Council,
said he had direct questions for Senator Halford and Senator
Taylor. Yesterday morning he was listening to the radio and
Congressman Young in Washington D.C. said that they are the two who
are holding the subsistence issue from coming to a vote of the
people. He asked why they are holding back making the rural
priority an issue.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD answered that Congressman Young didn't talk to him
before he made those comments and denied that he made them. So he
didn't know for sure what he was talking about. He said what they
have before them are the Task Force proposal and the Stevens
amendment. At this point he didn't know what they would put on the
ballot because everything he has heard is opposed to a
constitutional amendment as proposed by the Governor's Task Force.
MR. STICKMAN said he, himself, had actually heard Congressman
Stevens say that yesterday morning. He said that they need a rural
priority, not a native priority. There are other people who live
out there and they all share their resources.
MR. ANDY DURNEY said that he is a non-native white man, but in real
life he is full blooded Hungarian. He appreciates their coming to
Galena, but he thought they needed more input from bush people. He
thought that Alaska is great because of the contributions of all
the citizens. The primary source of Alaska's wealth are the
natural resources found in rural Alaska. Yet in the last few years
the legislature increasingly makes rural Alaskans feel like they
are second-class citizens and that they are a burden on the State
at the expense of their urban fellow citizens.
Over the last few years they have made budget cuts that affect
rural Alaskan disproportionately. There's less money for schools
and there are efforts to take money from rural schools and put it
into the urban schools. They are affected more severely by State
revenue sharing and municipal assistance cuts. There's no
discretionary funding. There's welfare reform, but there are no
meaningful job opportunities and the State is fighting tribal
governments and the tribal governments are the organizations that
can best address some of these issues.
TAPE 97-55, SIDE B
MR. DURNEY said long before they were elected or before outsiders
arrived, people in bush Alaska fed themselves by hunting and
fishing and gathering and they still do that today. Just because
they are partially dependent on a cash economy doesn't mean that
rural Alaskans should be denied their traditional means of
providing for themselves and families or of giving up their
worthwhile culture, customs and values. There is still a lot of
good in the old traditions and customs and it's not up to the urban
legislators to force them to discard those values that are vital
and contribute to the uniqueness and the appeal of the State of
Alaska.
MR. DURNEY noted that the game wardens flew around and were anxious
to catch people hunting one day early or one hour too late, but
they didn't apply the same effort to prevent the illegal sales of
alcohol and drugs to rural villages and they have caused more
trouble and grief than anything else out there.
He said since we are a government of the people, we should be
allowed to vote on the issue. He thought Alaskans support the
rural priority in times of shortage, but some legislators are
trying to block that.
MR. PETER DEMOSKI, Tribal Administrator, thanked the legislators
for holding a hearing in the rural area because they need the full
participation and consent of every Alaska native community. He
thought they should go to at least two or three villages in each
region. He supported Mr. Sidney Huntington's testimony.
He said they are calling this a subsistence issue, but it isn't
really what they are talking about. Subsistence is a way of life
and they are talking about hunting, fishing, and trapping
priorities.
He personally didn't have a preference for either State or federal
take-over of management. If there was a choice, he would vote for
the rural native to do it. If the State takes over, that doesn't
mean the State controls fish and game on federal lands or on
village corporation lands. A single agency cannot control the
whole State. He strongly supported a co-management system.
MR. WALTER STICKMAN, Tribal Council member, said he saw a civil war
starting over subsistence, urban vs. rural, moose hunter vs. antler
hunter, sportfishing vs. local use, and native vs. non-native.
People in rural Alaska get their food one way and urban people get
it another. He said they are being told how to hunt and that is
dictatorship; that is not right. He supported Mr. Sydney
Huntington's testimony.
MR. SIMEON MOUNTAIN said that land claims used to scare him because
he didn't understand what they were talking about. The first time
he heard about subsistence he was worried, too. He said even if
they take half of their subsistence away, it would be harder on
them.
MS. SHIRLEY CHRISTIAN said her main concern is for her 14 and 15
year old sons who don't have much to do in the village. So they go
out and trap, snare rabbits, and go fishing. If subsistence stops,
she asked what they would do. Would arcades and piano lessons be
brought in for them, she asked.
MS. EDNA UNGUDRULE PETERS, Ruby Tribal Council, testified.
[TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
SENATOR LINCOLN thanked Ms. Peters for coming to testify today and
at her own expense.
MR. CARL KNUDSON, Galena School, MR. DARRYL WALKER, Holy Cross
Tribal Council, and MR. CARL JERUE, JR., Anvik Tribal members,
testified [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
SENATOR LINCOLN asked him if the cultural and traditional values
were still very strong in Anvik.
MR. JERUE answered that they were still very strong.
MS. ADRIENNE BLATCHFORD, Unalakleet, MS. MARIE CHIKLAK, Mountain
Village, and MR. GEORGE YASKA, Tanana Chief's Conference,
testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
SENATOR TAYLOR said he has repeatedly heard about subsistence being
taken away and there has been nothing and there is nothing pending
that would take that away. He asked if he was advocating for them
to do nothing to prevent the federal government from taking away
subsistence.
MR. YASKA replied. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
SENATOR TAYLOR said he had not talked to anyone in the legislature
who wanted to take away subsistence rights from people who need
subsistence. He asked if he wanted to vote on an amendment this
fall, and if so, which one did he want to vote on.
MR. YASKA replied. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the legislature has denied anyone their
subsistence right. It is her belief that by not having a rural
preference, they will be denying people subsistence rights. In
times of shortage a rural preference is the only way to go. She
also understood Senator Taylor to believe that every Alaskan should
have a subsistence right because it is a human right.
SENATOR TAYLOR agreed and said that is also the AFN position.
TAPE 97-56, SIDE A
SENATOR LINCOLN said a rural preference amendment is not a
complicated issue and that's what has to go on the ballot before
they adjourn in May.
MR. CARL HUNTINGTON, MR. CHARLES SINK, MR. GABE NICHOLI
MR. MAX HUHNDORF, MS. JENNY PERKOLA, MR. ORVILLE HUNTINGTON and
MR. DON STICKMAN testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
TAPE 97-56, SIDE B
MR. CHARLIE JONES, MR. ROGER HUNTINGTON, MS. VIOLET DAYTON, and MR.
BENEDICT JONES testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.]
TAPE 97-57, SIDE A
MR. JONES continued testifying. MR. PAT SWEETSIR, Louden Tribal
Council, and MS. ANGELA HUNTINGTON testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS
VERY BROKEN.]
CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked everyone for their participation and
adjourned the meeting.
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